Does the North Country have a private sector future?
NCPR has reported for years on what many economists call "rural socialism."
This is the growing trend of small towns across the U.S. that rely on taxpayers, along with state and Federal agencies, for nearly every aspect of their economies.
Here in the North Country, more than half of the take-home salaries are provided directly by governments.
When you add in the 10% of local residents on unemployment, and our elderly residents on Social Security and Medicaid, there's not a lot of entrepreneurship left.
Yesterday, I was in Lyon Mountain for a rally to save the local correctional facility.
Despite an $8.2 billion dollar state budget deficit, and what state officials describe as plummeting inmate counts, there's a strong push to save three prisons in the North Country.
(Unions and some local officials dispute the Paterson administration's claims that a growing number of prison beds are empty. They say the state is still 'double-bunking,' a practice some describe as risky.)
The motivation is obvious: Since the 1960s, many parts of the region have been devastated by factory, mill and mine closings.
But interestingly, I hear very little discussion of trying to restart a private-sector, capitalist economy in these towns.
The assumption -- the conviction -- is that if state and local government jobs go, nothing will ever replace them.
That may be true. But what is the alternative? Is it appropriate, sustainable, ethical for our region to continue to rely on taxpayers (many of them living elsewhere) for our jobs?
And another question:
Have these prisons fostered prosperity?
When I drive through Dannemora and Lyon Mountain, it's hard to see that the corrections jobs have sparked much of a retail or service economy.
These are hard questions. And it's especially hard to wrestle with them at a time when many people are angry and afraid.
Lyon Mountain is an incredibly proud community. Many families have held on in the community through very hard times.
But it's still important to talk about this openly. Your comments welcome.
posted by Brian Mann @ 2/05/2010 08:05:00 AM
60 Comments
60 Comments:
Tell me Brian, lets say ABC Corp wants to build a 1600 acre chemical manufacturing plant or steel mill or something in Tupper Lake or Morristown or North Creek or in Westport. Projections say 1,000-1,500 jobs would be at the plant. Rail lines would be laid, water treatment plants and air scrubbers would be erected. What do you think the response would be? NO WAY!!! "We don't want smoke stack industries here!!!" That's what would happen.
Until people shed the scales from their eyes and see things as they really are and put a stop to the nonsense of over regulation and taxation the best we can ope for is to become Appalachia V 2.0.
The NC has been reliant on government for jobs because high taxes and unnecessary regulation have driven private sector employers out of the region. Most rural communities are in states that are more hospitable to do business than NY and, consequently, they don't have such a heavy reliance on government. The legislative leaders have shown little desire to improve the economy.
One of the best things they could do is reform the state's Scaffold Law, which imposes strict liability on owners and contractors for any gravity related workplace accident. Even if the worker is responsible for their own accident, the owner and employer will still be held liable. John Sampson and Sheldon Silver are both employed by personal injury firms and have shown little interest in reforming the law.
To make things worse, as the NC's population continues to stagnate, it becomes more difficult for school districts and local governments to achieve economies of scale. Which results in an even heavier reliance on government.
Actually, Plattsburgh is doing what Bret says isn't being done. Bombardier and Nova Bus have been welcomed there, in part with tax breaks.
Black bear -
Actually, the problem with your argument is that the North Country IS typical.
Across the US, rural communities are far more reliant on government jobs than urban and suburban communities.
What's more, the vast majority of these communities rely for those jobs on urban taxpayers.
As I've reported before, this represents one of the largest redistributions of wealth in American history.
States like Wyoming, North Dakota, Alaska and Montana are massive net drains on the taxpayer.
Meanwhile, urban states like New York and California "export" billions of dollars a year in tax payments that are used to fund programs in rural areas.
-Brian, NCPR
You note "the vast majority of these communities rely for those jobs on urban taxpayers."
Is it right for the cities to depend on rural areas for resources like water, power, food and a place to dump their criminals? Shouldn't they be self sufficient in those things? How about clean air? Shouldn't we build domes over the cities to stop our clean air from carrying away the pollution caused by concentrations of people?
You can't think of this as city vs rural. It is one country. The cities provide many things in terms of markets, finance and culture but they depend on the rural areas too. Don't believe it? Check out Port Au Prince. If the private sector doesn't or can't provide all the structure to balance those roles, the government has to. Why is that bad?
And Brian you keep decrying the lack of entrepreneurship in the North Country. What businesses would you suggest? What great and positive entrepreneurial ideas do you have? Do we really want to try to compete with the cities for smoke stack industry like Bret talks about? Even if it does have scrubbers and is clean it will require more railroads, highways, etc. and would still be at a disadvantage due to distance from markets. Efforts are being made to get the whole NC wired for broadband which has potential for jobs whose "product" can be electronically delivered. But is that enough? Making the NC economically independent of government jobs is not easy and probably not even desirable.
What Brian M cites illustrates the proposed pact with the devil much of rural America faces. It's not high tech or "green" industries that are interested in rural America. It's smokestacks, factory farms and mines. In order to save your quality of life economically without being dependent on government, you have to accept private sector industries that will destroy your quality of life in every other way. The Appalachia cited by Bret is a perfect example of this.
Bret I love your idea except as a member of the Board of Directors of the ABC Corp I vote we make salsa instead of a boron triflouride plant.
Anon 8:51- I specifically din;t mention Plattsburgh for the simple reason that Tupper and North Creek for instance both lack former Air Force bases with pre-existing heavy rail lines, etc. Lets try and stick with what Brian was talking about.
Brian- just the other day I believe NPR ran a story about Bloomberg talking of laying off city workers because tax revenue from the State wasn't flowing into the city. Clear this up eh? Are we supported by them or are they supported by us?
Anon 9:41- Oh great! Now we gotta bulldoze the High Peaks flat so we can plant tomatoes!
Bret -
There's no contest. We're supported by them and sadly have been for generations.
Here's how it works: New York City and downstate taxpayers -- with their higher incomes -- pay the lion's share of taxes collected in New York.
Here in the North Country, where incomes (and populations) are dramatically lower, we pay a fraction of the amount.
What's more, over the years we've become far more dependent on the government sector for our jobs.
The problem now for New York City is two-fold:
1. The City is sending a lot of money to Albany and not enough is coming back to pay for all those jobs. (In part because a disproportionate amount is going to places like the North COuntry.)
2. The City is paying Albany much less in taxes, largely because of the decline in Wall Street bonuses. So even if NYC was getting all of its tax money back, they'd probably still have to make cuts.
But again, the bottom line is factually unambiguous.
Taxpayers in urban and suburban America subsidize rural America.
It's been that way for generations.
Your other point, about urban regulations, etc., being foisted on rural communities is perfectly valid.
How many of the rules that are needed in big cities are really needed in small towns?
Unfortunately, most economists will tell you that that's not really what's killing rural economies.
The big problems:
1. Lack of private sector investment - banks and corporations hate investing in small towns.
2. Brain drain - Young people are fleeing small towns, even small towns where there are good jobs.
It's a tough nut to crack.
Brian, NCPR
Of course the NC has a private sector future. That is an easy one. The future should be based on the outdoor assets that the region has. Personally I can only speak for the ADKs where I grew up. The NC is a big place so other areas may have different solutions. When I say an economy based on the regions outdoor assets I am not talking about locking the whole place up as wilderness so a few people can come up with all their stuff and paddle into a pond until they leave a few days later, spending little or no money while they are there. That is many people’s vision of the ADK’s. but it won’t help the economy much. What I see is a place like the intermountain west. I spent 8 years in Colorado and was amazed at how they use their outdoor assets to the benefit of the economy. We can learn a lot from places like this. Their mountains have beautiful lodges and resorts where people can come and enjoy the outdoors and spend money in the process. I know that many NCPR listeners that are reading this are quickly working on a rebuttal. Saying that I am some developer whack-job that wants to wreck the place. I am not. I just see the area as a place with room for responsible development (carefully planned to enhance the economic as well as ecological character of the area) that will create jobs and economic prosperity for its residents. This is a tough sell even in the town where I grew up Saranac Lake. Many people there resent tourists and the crowds and problems they bring. My parents fit this bill. Get used to it. I think that the area (like many rural areas as Brian says) is in a transition. The old hospital and prison and manufacturing days are over. The difference is that this area has these outdoor assets that many other rural areas do not. That is why I am very optimistic for the region. I also think that there is a considerable opportunities based on technology. I could do what I am doing now (I mean for work when I am not responding here!) in Saranac Lake thanks to technology. I have a brother-in-law who works for a large multinational company and makes a very good salary. He does it from his basement office in Saranac Lake. I also have friends that own businesses that cater to tourists and second home-owners (and permanent residents). Things like marinas and restaurants. These things are the basis of the new economy in the North Country we just need more. I agree with some above. There are regulations and taxes that are a hindrance to economic growth. Some things do need to change. It shouldn’t take years to get the OK to build a resort in the ADK’s. Especially one that will probably lower the long-term environmental impact in a particular area. The Adirondacks could have some of the best and most profitable ski areas in the country. Let me make the insane proposal that the constitution be amended to allow for several ski areas to be built in the high peaks. Is there some good pitch on the hills that are part of the Nature Conservancy’s land in the ADK’s? I am totally serious. All the folks who say in these blogs that the future of the Adirondacks lies in its wilderness assets than we need to use them in a way that stimulates the economy. If you don’t like these ideas than tell me what is a better plan, and how will it boost the economy for real.? Look at this here is a “stimulus plan” for the ADK’s: http://www.gazette.com/articles/http-91267-href-winter.html
All,
I think what's missing from this discussion is that there's also been a brain drain from the NC. Younger college educated people - future entrepreneurs - are not sticking around. They're moving to neighboring states that are friendlier to start-ups and have the necessary infrastructure to support businesses.
Sadly it takes acts of the state legislature and years of negotiations to erect cell towers, gain access high speed wifi and etc. Building a decent east to west highway (not necessarily and interstate) might help private industry locate here. But the intractability of such a roadway is unthinkable in the current budget climate. What about a decent regional airport somewhere between Watertown and Plattsburgh where medium sized jets could land?
Unless there's a dramatic change in the political culture in the state & NC counties - in how business is perceived - then, no, the North Country doesn't have a private sector future.
JPM
JPM, I totally agree with you. But I don't see any business growth unless it is based on some unique assets the area has. It is just too easy to locate a business somewhere else that already has the infrastructure you describe. On the "brain drain" I have seen several of my friends who left the area move back when technology allowed them to do so. It is happening. Slowly.
Bret- re: our tomatoes- LOL!
always somthin.
Kidding aside- does it seem to anyone else that it's not about young entrepeneurs going someplace else where money and permissions are easier to go, and maybe it's about the lack of young entrepeneurs?
Besides hollow dot.coms, and creative corporate accountants, what has anyone seen recently from an entrepeneur that was really a brand new, holy cow, why didn't we think of that before, it's just what we all needed, good ole Yankee ingenuity idea that employes thousands?
(and i don't mean "sham wow"- which is probably made in ?china? anyway)
After we've educated the young with our top notch universities, have they all gone home to their respective native countries, and did just what we hoped for here, there?
Has the American well spring of the mind run dry?
Please tell me i'm just a little jaded....
I'm with the Paul and copying the intermountain west, or even Vermont. But you have to cut the regs and taxes. You can;t keep an airport running on a trickle of local people especially when it cost half again as much as driving to Ottawa, Burlington, Syracuse or Albany. You have a perfectly good highway in St 11 but you need some by passes, especially at Canton and Potsdam.
It's there folks, we just can't get to it.
Anon 11:09. I think you may be a little jaded. It probably depends where you are sitting. I see so many good business plans go across my desk that it would make your head spin. Problem is, money is tight, so you have to make choices. But I think that the entrepreneurial spirit is as strong as ever and the ideas are incredible.
Re: paul--
AAAAAHHH! -so it's your fault!!!
loose that DENIED stamp!
You see fairly busy airports in small towns like Jackson Hole and Vail and Steamboat. Catch my drift? How many people live within a days drive of the ADK's? Just need to have something here for them to spend money on when they get here. I know some of the ADK Council or Protect types eyes are rolling way back in their heads right now. If you don't like my ideas lets see some others!
I lived in Vail for a few years. one immediate drawback i felt was as a worker, it was VERY expensive to live there...but there were alot of wealthy people vacationing there.
Yes, that is a problem. We already see it some in the Adirondacks. We have to figure out a way to deal with that for sure.
No.
The tourism-centric economy is absolutely bunk. Without some serious planning, the net result is extremely high costs of living, where the prices of things like housing are defined by outside, more wealthy economies.
Essex County, for instance, has a public transportation whose sole intent is to get the working class into Lake Placid so they can make the beds and serve the big money steaks.
The problem here seems to be that our local legislators have called for smaller state government for years. It's their montra. The assumption, it seems, was that government would be cut everywhere else, but not here because we are so highly dependent on municipal employment.
It appears Paterson has called their bluff.
Regulation, especially region-specific regulation, probably plays some role in the lack of viable business. But it is a significant oversimplification to blame the APA and the forest preserve for entire state of affairs.
Does anyone actually think that if the Adk town's actually stepped up and adopting local planning, while taking home-rule authority things would be any better?
How about if we somehow worked a deal to upgrade the land-use classifications would that help?
I have my doubts.
What Brian correctly notes is that this is the state of the "rural" throughout the country. It isn't anything new. Look at the flood of people running to urban settings at the height of U.S. industrialism.
The state is broke and like everyone else we are being asked -- or maybe told -- to carry our share of the load.
To put it bluntly, we are old and undereducated. Thanks to such policies like NAFTA, jobs for the rural working class have gone elsewhere.
Anon 11:09,
If you're unconvinced about entrepreneurs leaving the state all you need to do is look at some labor statistics or even the decline in population from NC counties. In absolute terms NC counties with the exception of Jefferson are losing population. Statewide population has slowed, it's projected that the effect of this will be the loss of 1 or possibly 2 congressional districts once reapportionment is completed.
Paul,
I agree on the assets issue, which I believe the NC has. But what's not being done is leveraging the assets to create an environment that's hospitable to businesses whether they are manufacturing or service.
anon 11:15. Absolutely there's a need for cutoffs and passing lanes. A cutoff for Gouverneur is sorely needed too.
JPM
Okay Jon, I disagree that a tourist based economy is bunk. Also, I said that there could be other jobs "moved" to the area via technology. I even gave a few examples. but that aside, what is your solution? You have shot down my idea so now it's your turn.
Anon 12:11
"Paul,
I agree on the assets issue, which I believe the NC has. But what's not being done is leveraging the assets to create an environment that's hospitable to businesses whether they are manufacturing or service."
I totally agree. Help me out, how do we do it? There is a lot of what is not happening here stuff. We need some "how to" stuff.
Paul,
My comments weren't meant as a "shot across your bow" or anything. It just appears that the historic trends in this region bare out what a tourist economy produces -- at least in its current form.
Such an economy can be a very viable addition to broader economic system, but to have the almost the entire economy dependent on outside monies is treacherous, risky and in essence only expedites the division of the classes.
Look at Aspen, tent cities -- the homes of employed locals -- regularly spring up.
And people wonder why the locals resent the "visitors". Who can go to Whiteface and actually enjoy the local "resources" when it costs $75 to get on the lift and they only make $25,000 annually. And that is a state-owned mountain!!
That said, I agree that looking into some other areanas is necessary.
Specific to the Adks,it seems that with all of the emphasis being placed on "green jobs" -- vague buzz phrase that it is -- the park would be an optimal place for these businesses to set up shop.
It could even be a marketing tool for the companies; eg. "we conduct our business in the greenest place in the Northeast".
Pipe dream? Maybe, but at least it would be a sector that could build a viable middle class that isn't reliant on the taxpayer.
The telecommute thing worries me a bit. Especially in places like Hamilton County, I am not convinced it can work. Who is going to want to move to Long Lake and work from home when you have to drive the Glens Falls to shop or go to the hospital?
People used to drive to Tupper to shop and go to the Hospital from Long Lake. Since Tupper sort of dwindled away...such is life.
How about if you live in the northern tier no State income tax. How about if you buy a house in the NC and pay $HUGE you are $TAXED but not your neighbors who have been their for centuries. telework is real(I do it) and it's green. However if the piece of property beside me with an old hunting camp on it sells for the price the folks who own it now want, then I will not be able to afford the taxes on a house that I was raised in, went away from to get an education and returned to.
Property tax is a winner. Cheap to collect, easy to verify(hard to lie about what is right in front of you) But people do need protection from the second home market when it is their only home it is being comped to
Jon, I am with you. Telecommuting can only be a small part of the economy. Some of the "development" I describe will bring things like good stores and the like to the area. There is no lack of good shopping in Summit County CO. When things improve then you are more likely to lure back the type of talent you need to start other businesses, maybe the "green" ones you describe. Whiteface is a great example that mountain is a great asset. Problem is it can't be run the way it should, for one the good lodging is 10 miles down the road. John's brook lodge should be that a real LODGE. Now it is fun, but it is more like a hunting camp. Even still places like that are full all summer. We need more.
"In absolute terms NC counties with the exception of Jefferson are losing population."
Clinton County grew 2.6% from 2000-2008, accdg to Census Bureau.
I disagree a bit with the anti-tourism economy statements, though I agree with the parts about not allowing willy-nilly development. In some areas, tourism on the part of CEOs led to establishing satellite companies or branch offices of big companies, or new companies altogether. Burlington, VT, and Colorado Springs, CO, come to mind as examples.
An attractive tourism climate brings money to the area, and sometimes that money decides to invest in the new place.
I think it's time people realized if you want local business, they'd better start buying locally when ever there is a choice, I feel bad for the folks who work at the prisons, but only to a point, As one of many folks who lost their good jobs at GM last year, I find it hard to swallow, when I see people like prison guards, school teachers and other state employees buying foreign made vehicles, with the Money That my Taxes supply to them in the form of wages, Wake up boys and girls, if the rest of us aren't working, who's gonna pay your wages. Buy stuff from the folks who are paying your wages, because if they go down...so will you.
anon 2:58
I'm a state employee and proudly drive a Subaru. I'm sure you and your ex-coworkers worked hard and I wish you had that good job. GM's management drove that company into the ground and consumers went elsewhere. They shouldn't be blamed, state employee or not.
I'll NEVER buy a GM or Chrysler - Ford yes.
My point was, That you should make the effort to buy from the folks who's taxes are paying your wages, I agree That GM's greed For building big gas guzzlers over smaller responsible vehicles amongst other things has driven them to where they are, And also i know a lot or most people that weren't there, thought GM payed us too much, and maybe so, But you'd better understand when a lot of the people in this state aren't working or working for low wages at two jobs............your state job is gonna start looking like you're being overpayed as well, So just remember that when you run to walmart to buy your veggies, even though the local farmers sell better quality but may cost a nickel more, And It may have changed but I think at one time and maybe still, GM owned at least 10% of subaru.....so see, you were actually supporting your fellow citizens even though you tried not to.
With NO sarcasm intended--
yin and yang people, it's all yin and yang...but if we gonna crack an egg, let's it be for an omlete, not for naught.
I have to say though, that nature's priorities will always be first for me, no exception. I know where on what i live, and it's not as big as we think.
post script-
cut and pasted:
"....TELEWORK is real(I do it) and it's green. However if the piece of property beside me with an old hunting camp on it sells for the price the folks who own it now want, then I will not be able to afford the taxes on a house that I was raised in, went away from to get an education and returned to."
true but that don't get plywood to the jobsite..!!
No one had mentioned the NC's growth industry: political campaigns. Just think of all of the money that flowed into this region from the last two congressional special elections. Local TV and radio made a bundle are looking forward to November. And, let's not forget, all of the money campaign staffers and national reporters pumped into local businesses.
People talk about tourism as our future. Soounds good, unless you consider the fact tourist jobs are low paying. How many restaurant and shop owners offer health insurance?
As far as NYC supporting us goes, what about the 700 billion Wall Street bailout?
A close examination of the facts shows upstate would be better off as a seperate state. People talk about NYC subsidizing us, but one thing they don't mention is how the federal medicaid formula benefits low income states. Low income states receive a much higher reimbursement rate than high income states. Consequently, if upstate were a seperate state, we would receive a higher reimbursement rate, saving us money. Also, foolish laws like Wicks Law and Scaffold Law would be repealed, saving state and local taxpayers hundreds of millions. NYC lawmakers are completely in thrall to special interests, and have successfully blocked such measures from even coming up for a vote. Electrical rates would be lower, because we would actually get to keep some of our low cost hydro power.
Yes, other rural areas face similar changes with respect to population and job losses. I would argue, however, that because of some of NY's only in the nation laws - Wicks, Scaffold, APA, etc. - the NC faces particurly unique challenges.
I would like to note that I don't think the APA is necessarily bad; it's just that the current APA regime - with their disportionate emphasis on highly subjective aesthetical issues, and unwillingness to listen to local governments - has not been helpful. The agency has proven ineffective in one of its most important missions: protecting our lakes and rivers. But, they can tell us what color we can paint our houses!
We also need to improve our infrastructure, both our bridges and broadband. Collapsing bridges and snail place dial-up doesn't exactly make us an attractive place to do business.
No one has discussed our nascent wine business. Maybe, we could replicate the Finger Lakes?
The teachers and government employees are going to have tighten their belts; the feasibility of continuing to provide platinum-plated retiree health insurance needs to be examined.
In addition, it's important to keep in mind our undeniably ineffective state legislators.
None of them have shown the leadership that - agree with him or not - Ron Stafford showed. I do have hope, however, that Bill Owens will be different. He has a good grasp of the issues, and did help attract jobs to Plattsburgh.
But, maybe I'm being naive.
Well, I think I've said at least one thing everyone on this blog will disagree with.
I have to agree that the thought of NYC and the surrounding metropolitan area as it's own Federal District or State is intriguing. I feel the same way about any State where the voting can be swung entirely by one urban area while the vast majority of the rest of the land base is primarily rural. The values and concerns are too different. I found this many times while working in NYC. The term "upstate" refers to something in the Orange County area, anything north of there is a foreign land, another world.
It would be rough for a while but in the end I think it would be better. I also know it will never, ever happen.
It is silly to even consider the NC not being a full partner with the State. That includes NYC.
Without that downstate money, there is no infrastructure in the NC, and without those roads and bridges and all the rest, there is no commerce or social structure. That infrastructure will need billions to keep it going. If " downstate" ever cut off the NC, this place would make Bosnia look like Monaco.
Nobody wants to pay taxes, but everybody wants the things it pays for, and we are being subsidized by downstate money.
If it were to ever happen, just ship your kids to another state, because there will not be a school up here that does anything more than teach the three Rs, or maybe just two Rs, and with lousy roads and bridges even the little industry up here ( Corning) would move out.
We are all tied at the hip, like it or not, so work to improve it, not kill it.
I grow very tired of all the bitchers (can I say bitchers on here) who always complain that big government is stopping them from making a living. Go out and start a business...I did.
I actually think this 'go out and start a business' point is pretty salient.
It's true, of course, that taxes are high here and there are a lot of regulations.
It's also true that banks and other sources of capital are VERY reluctant to invest in our small towns.
But are those hurdles greater than the ones that the first settlers faced here?
Why don't we have a more entrepreneurial, risk-taking culture?
--Brian, NCPR
8:52,
It's not silly at all. Vermont and New Hampshire are successful states. How do they succeed without NYC? Are the people here just too incompetent and lazy to succeed?
The truth is we provide low cost hydro and nuclear power (if you include Oswego county as part of the NC) to NYC. Our utility rates would be considerably lower if we didn't have to do this.
Also, as a seperate state we would recieve a singificantly higher medicaid reimbursement rate from the feds. That's because FMR are based on medican income.
The billions that NYC subsidizes upstate for are usually mentioned during Wall Street booms. Those figures are seldom provided for years when Wall St. isn't booming.
We would actually be able to get rid of foolish laws that unnecessarily increase the cost of business by billions. Sheldon Silver refuses to allow such reforms to come up for a vote. Instead he's pushing a farm labor bill.
NYC and upstate (and the NC in particular) are just too different from each other.
You talk about infrastructure and bridges. Have you not heard about the state Comptroller's report detailing how billions has been raided from infrastructur funding? Or the closure of the Crown Point Bridge?
For a detailed example of how NYC sticks to us, read my commentary on the Scaffold Law.
Brian Mann,
Why isn't there entrepreneurship in the NC? Do some research on NY Labor Law 240, also know as the Scaffold Law.
It holds property owners and contractors completely liable -sometimes for millions and millions of dollars - for gravity related workplace construction accidents. Even if the worker was high, drunk, or refuses to follow safety instructions. As a result some contractors unable to obtain insurance.
All other states use comparative negligence instead of strict liability. That is, the defendant can defend themselves in court by showing how the injured worker caused the accident to occur.
The Court's have interpreted the statute to cover almost any project more complex than changing a light bulb.
There is bi-partisan legislation to reform this law. But the NYC leadership refuses to allow it to come up for a vote.
one thing I did not say on Scaffold. Owners of single and double family residences are exempted from the statute so long as they don't "control the work" (ie: if you hire someone to put shingles on your roof make sure you're not there watching them do it, or better yet don't be at home at all. And don't be too detailed in your instructions).
Southern New Hampshire is a bedroom community for Boston, so that explains a lot of its growth in the last two decades.
Vermont is successful, in part, because it's lured tourism dollars and entrepreneurs from New York City. And Boston.
Upstate regularly slanders downstate (I know, I know, it goes both ways) but there's a lot of private and intellectual capital down there. Might be worth looking into some ways to lure some of it north.
Construction workers, electricians, plumbers and electricians need to tighten up their belts. We can no longer afford the prices they charge so they can work 20 weeks a year and draw $500 a week unemployment money the next 26 to 52 weeks ( we all pay for that ). Now there is a plan any state or government employee would love to be in on.
The private sector is the problem. You cannot build and grow with the prices charged by people who build things and fix things. Simple as that. How about this? eliminate unemployment insurance and the yearly government bailouts to these groups. Pay people only for when they work, and perhaps the lower wages per hour can be paid for work actually done throughout a year....No more "platinum" pay but not work plan for them..
The North Country is different from other rural areas of the country in several respects. Places in the upper Midwest such as the Dakota's, Nebraska etc, have low taxes, low regulation, low unionization, and low unemployment(even in this recession) and a vibrant even growing private sector. The government transfers they get are not between different parts of the state but are mainly federal in nature; largely military installations, farm subsidies and of course Social Security payments for an aging population.
The North Country is indeed doomed if we do not change the deadly combination of a largely non-college educated work force that is heavily unionized combined with extremely high taxes and burdensome regulations. We have a New York City cost structure combined with a West Virginia economy. Private industry will never choose to locate in that environment, why should it?
Mervel has some interesting thoughts. Worth pndering.
Not sure how you can compare New York State to Vermont or New Hampshire or the Dakotas and the like.
New york has a population of 20,000,000, Vermont 620,000, North Dakota 640,000. and on and on. Those states receive a lot of federal money, much of which comes from New york residents...
In Regards to the comment about construction workers collecting too much unemployment, I believe many of these type workers have been hurt by other people "double dipping", I know more than a few Prison guards who's work load is so low and flexible that they have time enough on their hands to work second jobs, many of which are in the private construction business, Meanwhile people whe depend on these jobs have none, while they have two, and come to think of it, I wonder who pays for their insurance if they get hurt on their little side jobs ? Tax payers maybe ? Maybe instead of the real construction workers "tightening their belt ", the state should "shorten their leashes" and actually require it's employess to be on the job 8 hrs per day and 5 days a week, with OT coming on the weekends....Like a normal job. And by the way unemployment pays less than $450 per week before taxes.
The other problem at least in St. Lawrence County is the seething resentment that you see a little of on this board; between the half of the county workforce that is well paid with great lifetime benefits who work directly for the government and the rest of the work force in the small struggling private sector or the farming/dairy business.
Teachers, county employees, prison employees, mental health employees not only have higher salaries than those in the private sector (which is weird) BUT also have what would be referred to as Cadillac benefits, lifetime health, for many no contributions outside of a minimal co-pay for health insurance and of course pensions and retirement health care, all for free.
So you have one half of the county that has these things, while the other half is underemployed, unemployed, uninsured, or struggling to sell milk at below market prices. Combine that with the power given to the county and villages to inflict taxes and the strangle hold public unions have on that process, and you have almost a feudal system where the well off extract from the less well off.
It does not make for a healthy community.
Taking large infusions of public money like the prisons or the sexual predator lockup center are like addictive drugs; they feel good at the time but in the long run are not healthy.
I submit that the NC, like the rest of the State, has a large underground private sector. Logging, firewood, landscaping, auto repair, buying and selling, painting, construction and on and on that goes under reported or never reported for State income and tax purposes.
Any data is skewed by this fact. It may account for as much as 25% of the NC economy, maybe more. Everybody else pays the tab for that. There a lot of free loaders, they enjoy the goods and services taxes pay for, but do not think they should have to pay taxes on all of their income.
Mervel-
Farm subsidies totaled $177.6 billion from 1996-2005. Nobody gets more Federal support than farmers. The Federal and State support to prop up farms is legendary . I consider farmers State workers . In essence , they are.
Unfortunately, it is not enough. If a shoe maker needs $15 to make his shoes, but can only get $14 at market, then he goes out of business. The same principal needs to be applied to a farm. It is a business, and does not have some inherent right to exist just because your Dad was a farmer, so therefore you have the right to be a farmer. Let the market find its level, it is socialism at the highest level the way we deal with the farmer, which is ironic really. How many tea baggers screaming against Socialism realize that is the only reason they are in business to begin with?
Sure farmers get federal subsidies which allow them to barely survive. The government has long taken an interest in supporting the farming industry to even out the ups and downs of the market.
But this is what all of this government spending does; it pits groups against one another. When we have a county that is largely dependant on government jobs or government subsidies for survival then you will have resentment when you have one sector say teachers or BOCES employees or Prison Guards getting higher than market pay and great benefits and another out there barely surviving shoveling manure, with no health insurance, no pensions and a low income.
Not to mention the people stuck trying to start a small business or patching together several jobs to make ends meet.
I just see this resentment and it is too bad and will make solving our problems harder.
Mervel, lets also note that in addition to price supports there are price controls in place too. The US has had a cheap food policy for close to a hundred years if I read things right, it's complicated. Milk prices are still set off a 1920's or earlier model based on distance from Chicago under law, again if I understand it right. Any non-storable commodity like fluid milk is at the mercy of both the Gov't rules and the buyer. Grain prices rec'v supports that cause your dairy ration price to be higher, so you need a milk support to help with that, etc, etc.
I've heard people say for decades that we either need the gov't entirely in the farm business with quotas, etc, like Canada or completely out of the system altogether. From what I've seen, and figures can be manipulated I realize, the current system, especially in dairy, isn't sustainable. If the economy worsens then things will get that much worse for those trying to apply an old paradigm to a new reality.
6:48,
The reason construction workers, electricians, etc. charge such high prices is the state's Scaffold Law. It has sent liability insurance costs for contractors and sub-contractors through the roof.
I'm not FORCED to pay for the services of private sector employees, but I am forced to pay taxes to support the public sector.
Blackbear-Who FORCES you to use the roads and hospitals and all else that is part of a developed Country paid for by other peoples money? Shall we do away with Armies ( the military is the fastest growing part of the Federal Budget, Human Services the slowest ) and police forces and Judicial systems and prisons and schools and all the rest? Who really pays for that added cost for insurance that the contractor pays? Not the contractor, the consumer is the one who pays.
What farmer pays income tax? on paper you lose money every year, except that seventh year when you break even. Property taxes? How do you ask hundreds of thousands of dollars when you want to sell your property, but do not think it is worth anything when you own it? If this place is so bad, why doesn't everybody just move to Vermont or Montana?
In good economic times the private sector is where people flock to make the big bucks. In tough economic times they look at the public sector and say " they got it made"
What person would spend 50 to 100 thousand dollars to get a 35 thousand a year teaching job coming out of college. Add in that much of that education is now debt starting out, and you have lost five years of payroll checks and I would say it is a very dumb investment.
Where are we? The head of the Republican National Committee, Steele, actually said two days ago " A million dollars is not really a lot of money after taxes." So, I guess those CEOs that got $5 million dollar bonuses should keep even more of that money. Now there is a precious thought..
I am fine with doing away with all public schools. Let those that can afford it send their children to be educated, and those that cannot be sent to minimum , cheap, level affordable public schools. That is the end result of those that think like you, and I am just fine with it..Count me in.
We need government workers and we need a public sector.
But does it make sense that as a group they should be the highest paid people in the county with the best benefits and the largest single sector of the economy?
Combined with tax rates that rank among the highest in the nation and it is not hard to see why the private sector struggles. There are no fat cat corporate types in St. Lawrence County, I wish there were.
But yes if you work for the county, school system, DSS, prisons, mental health, probation community services, psych center, BOCES, villages, and so on and so forth this is a great place to live, decent wages, great benefits and home prices that are not outrages.
Mervel
I guess everything changes. When I first came to this area forty years ago it was a great place to live if you worked in the private sector. The best money was at Alcoa, GM, Newton Falls, J&L and places like that.
It is time to close the prisons. There is no good fiscal reason to keep them open up here.
The argument about having two separate states - the NYC metropolitan area and - "upstate" will not happen constitutionally. The U.S. Constitution forbids it. Only once in this our country's history was this permitted. It was during or immediately after the civil war when the western part of Virginia sided with the north. It became West Virginia.
How that was done constitutionally eludes me. Can we get some further expertise on this?
Another thought: I remember during the Winter Olympics in 1980 that businesses in Tupper lake expanded in anticipation of a great resurgence. They had no resurgence during the Olympics and there were tragic, personal results after.
3:23,
I'm not opposed to paying taxes; I just think that analogy between the private and public setors is flawed because I have no choice in whether I can pay taxes.
I also think that public sector - especially school districts- need to tighten their belts like the private sector has. How about a pay freeze for teachers? Teachers do not make great income if you just like at annual pay. If, however, you include all the time off, the job security and the cadillac pension, health care, and retiree health care benefits teachers are pretty well off. Name one viable private sector company that allows their employees to retire with full pension and health care benefits at age 55. The auto companies had those kind of benefits and look what happened to them.
People are so quick to blame regulation and taxes for our North Country problems. How is one to explain similar issues in Northern Vt. or Northern New Hampshire? The long arm of Albany? Yes, we have a private sector future, but it isn't to be found in pursuing the suburban ideal or material extravagance. We can create a more regional economic sector based on producing more wood and grass energy and more of our own foodstuffs. Coupled with other sectors, we will be just fine.
"I'm not FORCED to pay for the services of private sector employees...."
Yes you are. Your taxes pay for private military contractors and mercenaries like Xe, formerly Blackwater.
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