NY Rep. Hinchey's claims about Osama bin Laden "will strike a lot of people as crazy"
Speaking on MSNBC this week, NY Congressman Maurice Hinchey accused the Bush Administration of intentionally allowing Osama bin Laden to escape after 9/11.
Here's the video.
Hinchey, a Democrat whose district abuts that of Glens Falls Rep. Scott Murphy, was challenged repeatedly in his claim by host David Shuster.
"[T]o suggest that they would deliberately let, deliberately let Osama bin Laden get away so they could justify the war in Iraq," Shuter said. "That will strike a lot of people as crazy."
Hinchey stood by his claim and clarified that he wasn't being misunderstood.
It's a remarkable conspiracy theory, the sort of rhetorical bomb that no politician should hurl without hard and fast evidence.
(Not least because it's utterly implausible.)
In the interview, Hinchey offers no such proof, but claims that "the leader of the military operation in the United States called back our military..."
"We could have captured most of the Taliban and we could have captured Al Quaeda. But we didn't. And we didn't because of the need felt by the previous Administration and the previous head of the military...that need to attack Iraq."Your thoughts? Comment below.
posted by Brian Mann @ 12/01/2009 01:17:00 AM
38 Comments
38 Comments:
No crazier than the fact that the Bush Administration master-minded the 9-11 attacks.
Honestly, Brian, what seems implausible is that it took somebody in elected office so long to point it out. Think back to the bizarre events surrounding Tora Bora, the escape on donkey-back over the mountains after the pounding by those special "bunker- buster" bombs, the shrugging dismissal of Bin Laden and Al Qaeda as worthy foes, the immediate announcement of the Iraq invasion which the neo-cons had been touting ever since the first Gulf War left Saddam in power, Rumsfeld's constant whining about the Afghanistan's target-poor environment. Conspiracy was those guys' middle name. Why else pull such a switcheroo and manage to lose a few guys on donkeys? Wasn't it obvious? If it wasn't deliberate it was hoped for by the Bushies. I applaud Hinchey.
And some here would call me nuts for wondering why so many people associated with the Clintons wound up dead......
News flash folks- this is part of the conspiracy to bring Bush and Co to trial. Yes, I said CONSPIRACY. No doubt in my mind they'd love to do it. Whether they'll actually risk it remains to be seen.
comments like hinchey's, without any evidence to back them up whatsoever, are totally beyond the pale. i hope he's ashamed. i'm ashamed to hear another democrat talking like this.
on the other hand, regarding bret's comment, of course bush should be brought to trial. his sanction of torture was a war crime, and the proper function of our legal system demands that he be held accountable.
is probably right. I have a relative who served with the forces in Afghanistan who were on the verge of taking on Osama and his dead-enders. He says that his entire outfit was "shocked" at the order to stand down and then get out, and that it "hurt morale" not only within his outfit but among forces throughout Afghanistan.
It's more than clear that Cheney and VBush were both eager to take out Saddam using bogus, stovepiped "intel" about WMDs in an effort to access Iraq's oilfields. America was betrayed by the criminality its previous administration.
If there's a "conspiracy" to bring Bush and Cheney to justice, I'd love to hear from them, because I would fully support their efforts.
I believe the PBS series "Frontline" aired an episode a few years back about the Tora Bora incident. As I recall, they made a strong case that an order to "stand down" was given by someone very high up in the administration who was never identified. Whether intentional or not, it's strange that there's been little official inquiry into the incident given the magnitude of the error.
I think it's utterly plausible but plausible doesn't mean definite or even probable.
I agree that no responsible public official should make such a serious accusation without providing some evidence. If we can bash Doug Hoffman for making serious accusations without evidence, we should do the same to Hinchey.
These conspiracy theories are absurd and insulting. You really think the Bush Administation would have 1000's killed just for his own agenda? If you think so then I really feel sorry for you. And Steve I appreciate your relatives service to this country but he/she is either lying or you are insulting his/her service by making this crud up. As for Mr. Hinchey, I don't know why a person in power would spout such jibberish.
Face time. 15 seconds of fame.
The PBS program "Frontline" aired an excellent episode a few years ago devoted entirely to the failure at Tora Bora. As I recall, they made a strong case that an order to "stand down" was given by someone very high up in the administration and the source of the order has never been identified. Whether it was intentional or not to allow the escape of Bin laden, what I find rather telling is that there's never been an official Pentagon or congressional investigation as to why this failure occurred.
Deja vu all over again.
HT- Then we should probably bring every President who has ever been in office to trial. So called "torture" was certainly used in WW1 and WW2, Korea, Vietnam, numerous times during the Cold war, in the aftermath of the Beruit Bombings, in the Gulf War and from stories told to me by first hand participants, in Haiti, Panama, Somalia and Bosnia, to say nothing of the aftermath of 9/11. To take Bush to task without including his predecessors still living is hypocrisy. And since Obama is currently in office we'll have to ask for a complete release of any and all records that might indicate "torture" took place since he's been in office. Considering what some term "torure" I suppose anyone who went through Marine Corps bootcamp more than 25-30 years ago is also a "victim" and we can drag them all in as witnesses. Sleep deprivation, physical abuse, fear, nearly drowning... sounds like a typical day at Parris Island
to me.
With you, b4207. Torture is awesome. Glad Obama is continuing it.
"You really think the Bush Administation would have 1000's killed just for his own agenda?"
Wars are always based on economics, with a healthy dose of politicians' and generals' egos thrown in.
This is not unique to the Bush Administration, nor to the USA. Obama knows that an escalation in Afghanistan will have no positive long term impact on Afghanistan, the region or our national security but he believes politically, he can't be seen to be "weak."
The incident at Tora Bora, where the troops were ordered to stand down just when they had Osama's behind in a trap actually took place. I remember it being reported on soon after it took place.
Who issued the order is for a Congressional inquiry to unravel, but it was ordered and Osama got away.
This does not mean that there was a Bush conspiracy behind this order. Even if Bush's invasion of Iraq benefitted greatly from having Osama still on the run instead of being captured "dead or alive."
Bret4207 throws a smokebomb about the Clintons. I don't understand what they, the Clintons had to do with Tora Bora.
Next Bret4207 claims that the torture conducted by our CIA and military folks is tantamouont to the experience of Marine boots at Parris Island, SC.
I went through boot camp in 1973. We were worked hard, stressed out, and subjected to rigid discipline. Sort of like I experienced at home as a kid (my Dad is a former Marine DI). I don't believe that any human rights organization has ever labeled Marine boot camp as torture.
I don't recall being kept naked in a cramped cage for days on end, in total darkness and cold, having ear splitting music playing constantly. Or being isolated from my fellow Marines for months at at time, not being allowed to communicate with people back home or learn of anything happening outside of my 4x8 cell. Or being slammed into walls, beaten with fists, piled naked on top of other Marines, being sodomized by brooms and nightsticks, being terrorized by attack dogs inches from my gonads, being sexually humiliated, being stuffed like sardines into empty truck trailers in the summer time with no water and no treatment for the wounded.
And then, the most aggregious act of torture, the use of waterboarding, was used hundreds of times. I don't recall being waterboarded once while in boot camp.
And before Bret4207, leaps onto the fact that our military Escape and Survival schools use "waterboarding" to train our people as to its horrors, our troops know that it is just a training exercise that can stop with a raised hand. And they are submitted to this routine - once.
And lastly, we murdered people in our torture regime.
Perhaps Bret42907 had a different experience at Parris Island?
A. torture does not work.
B. it is a crime against humanity
C. we are a signatory to the Geneva Conventions and other laws that prohibit torture
D. it is an absolute shame that Bush and Cheney allowed America's high standing and reputation for law and justice to be brought to such lowly depths.
Bret4207, and any other like-minded fools, who approve of our use of torture and seek to downplay our use of it as some kind of college frat initiation, this is where I draw the line.
You people are missing something vital in what it means to be a human being. You lack empathy. You lack a soul. You lack courage and you lack a heart.
It is easy to love those whom we identify with or are related to. It is much harder to love the stranger, especially a "strange" stranger.
Despite everything that you lack in compassion for others and your hardness of heart, I still love you as a fellow person.
Even if you are an absolute horses behind.
Bret4207, I would not want torture applied to you, no matter how infuriatingly stupid you can be at times.
to fjthies:
Well said!
Oh ya, fjthies, could you find it in your heart to love former Secretary of Defense Robert Strange McNamara? Your side called him a baby killer, remember? He never personally killed anybody.
A more aptly named human being is hard to find.
Back on thread - Rep. Hinchey needs a vacation to GITMO, that will close his trap.
BTW, my bff Glenn Beck told me today that there is no such place as Tora Bora. That's like believing in Timbuktu or the Emerald City. Kid stuff.
I imagine if I had information that would save the lives of your children you'd be among the first to help slowly roast me over a fire Frank. And if you claim you were never slammed into a wall, struck with fists, or stuffed into trailers like a sardine then you must not have gone to the same PI I did.
I guess not. You went through a real hell. I'm not talking about "school circle" or being crowding into the chow hall line "ass-hole to belly-button," or receiving a corrective slap or "touch" from a DI.
You absolutely refuse to understand. You absolutely must remain rigid to your fantasies.
Do the words "intellectual dishonesty" have any meaning for you.
At long last sir, is there no shame?
You are a very strange stranger to me. I love you and would not want to see you tortured, nor see your children tortured to reveal ANYTHING.
You moron, torture does not work!
Bret4207, sorry for calling you a moron.
Let me give you something to ponder. If you watch FOX's "24" for even one episode, you will come away thinking, "man, that's really cool. A little torture applied by our hero has helped to keep Las Vegas a "bright spot in the night time."
But let's look at a real American hero, Sen. John McCain.
The North Vietnamese government horribly tortured that man for years, including the use of isolation (a mere college prank to you) and what did they get?
Detailed plans to our Carrier Strike forces? Bombing targets being charted by our pilots? The capability of his plane to carry nukes?
No.
He confessed on camera that the United States was guilty of war crimes for the "indiscriminate" bombings and was the aggressor in the war.
All the while John was speaking on camera (obviously reading what his torturers wanted him to say), he was blinking in "dashes and dots" that he was tortured.
A dedicated jihadist (if that is your deepest fear) willing to die for his warped belief in what Allah wills, and the oportunity to spend eternity with 70 virgins, will lie to you until the bombs go off. He'll have you chasing a hundred targets and a hundred boogeymen. He's going to be tortured regardless of what he confesses.
We waterboarded Kalid Sheik Mohammed until the wells at GITMO ran dry.
What did we learn?
Bush and Cheney love torture.
And apparently so do you Bret4207.
But that makes you sad, not a moron.
My bad.
We'll have to agree to disagree Frank. I don't watch "24", I don't like torture and I don't live in fantasy world where turning the other cheek works. I don't think loud music, nudity, sleep deprivation, "almost" getting bit by a dog, solitary confinement, or wearing female underwear is torture. What McCain went through is torture. If debasement and humiliation are torture then we'd best close every high school in the US.
You opinion has many supporters. Your side wants to bring Bush and Co to trial for war crimes. You think that's great. Will you also bring Clinton and Co to trial for allowing the same thing?............ Didn't think so. So who is intellectually dishonest?
Does change mean the same?
As I said about Bret4207, at long last there is no shame.
Beware of karma my brother.
What you send around will come back to you.
Or, if you prefer the Christian message - do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
And Bret4207 justifies and loves torture...but it ain't torture in his mind, just annoyances.
You're one sick puppy, raising adopted children no less. What sort of warped world view are they being indoctrinated with?
Let us hope that the occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan will not still be bubbling along when Bret4207's own children are old enough to enlist and fight. They will have learned from Daddy that to define torture all depends on who is being tortured.
Ps. Bret4207, when will you take me up on that offer I made a few threads back, to have you waterboarded with NCPR, a doctor, and your children their to watch the procedings?
Put your chicken-hearted butt on the line and demonstrate to us that waterboarding is merely an annoyance. One well used by the Spanish Inquisition I may add.
Heck, just let us pile you naked underneath several men for a half hour, and then afterwards we can pummel you while holding a snarling, snapping beast inches from your private parts.
You know, Bret4207, just like the routines you endured in Marine boot camp.
The Marines must have really warped your brain. Or were you already predispositioned to be a completely heartless human being?
Bret4207 December 2, 2009 8:47 AM
"We'll have to agree to disagree Frank."
I will NEVER agree to disagree on the topic of torture Bret4207.
Psychological torture goes hand in glove with physical torture, both forms are evil and from the "dark side."
Remember when Cheney said, "we will be working the dark side." And then his team of Orwellian double-speakers coined the cute phrase "enhanced interrogation techniques."
Bret4207...is that like Bond 007?
Would you be willing to publish your strange points of view using your real name?
Or would doing so potentially make you a pariah in our commuinity?
You disingenuously compare the use sleep deprivation to college frat high-jinks deliberately mixing apples and oranges, for which you have a talent.
A few days of sleep deprivation whether in boot camp or in a college initiation does in no way compare with 24/7 unending sleep deprivation for weeks on end.
As for waterboarding being torture, before you volunteer to undergo this annoying procedure, with the risk of looking like a bubbling, dribbling idiot, may I direct you to the following you-tube video starring "Mancow" Muller, right wing radio host and talking head - www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0u5XLM0-CA
Bret4207 - Torture is mostly ineffective, it perpetuates contempt/violence and fuels anti-amrican sentiment and propaganda. Put another way, torture's negative aspects vastly outweigh its positive aspects.
I understand your argument and I feel that your sentiment is pure. I don't mean to speak for you but I don't think that you want to torture for the sake of torture. I think you want to torture because you think it will benefit your country, which you love. I like your sentiment, not your logic.
Further, torture is a very slippery slope. Where do you draw the line? When do you start killing people to get what you want? Certainly innocent people have been held and tortured. Is that okay with you? If so, how many innocent people have to be subjected to torture before it is wrong in your eyes?
Stop frothing, you're making a fool of yourself. 2 posts worth of spewing and distorting what I said doesn't change my opinion. If you disagree fine, I said that's understandable, but name calling and bringing my kids into this is beyond acceptable. Hold yourself to your own high standard and try and use your head. Since you can't seem to control yourself I'll try not to be so plain spoken and honest in expressing my opinion. Wouldn't want your monitor blowing up from the shower of spittle on the screen...
Brent- I appreciate your at least trying to understand my point of view. So called "torture" should be a last resort obviously and used with a clear objective in mind, not like some Nazi animal experimenting on prisoners in WW2. No doubt many peoples feelings towards our "torture" technique mirror my disgust and anger towards the people that sawed off Daniel Pearls head on a video. Why people ignore that while wanting to saw off Bushes head is beyond me. Why they want to imprison our people while completely ignoring the true torture our people go through under enemy hands mystifys me. Why and how can someone call us animals while seemingly justifying the enemies use of far harsher, deadly techniques?
The last thing I would want is for any kind of abuse to become commonplace, there's far too much of that in the world already. I just don't think its wise to criminalize something we may need in some dire situation in the future. Like I said, if my kids life is on the line...anything goes.
And you sir, when it comes to this topic, are a shameless charlatan.
One more time...torture does not work...and we used torture.
But you keep going around and around.
First you defend the crimes we have committed as a nation as not being torture.
Then, when it is drilled into your head with hard facts that what we have done is torture, you then seek to justify it as being necessary for our defense, or to save my kids, or your kids, or Cheney's kids from the Cookie Monsters.
Around and around you go. Rambling on from one defense of torture to the next. Yopu tell us that you hate torture. But it is necessary to protect us. But we don't use torture. And you would hate it if we did torture??????
Then you accuse me of supporting torture? On what evidence? Man, that's the kind of spin I only see on FOX News (which according to you, you don't watch).
Again, "maggot" (remember your DI calling recruit Bret4207 that name at PI?), if you are so damned sure and proud of your stance on this matter IDENTIFY YOURSELF boldy on this blog for all to know you are.
And again, volunteer to submit yourself to waterboarding.
I'm tired of dealing with you.
From now on, my postings will never again be in response to any of your posts. Why waste time dealing with the manure that passes as your informed thoughts?
And as for my talking about our children, you, sir, were the first to bring in your children several threads back.
I hope and pray that our children will never fall victim to the "enhanced interrogation techniques" you so defend!
Now, come out of your dark closet and tell us who you are.
It is finished.
Yeah, okay. Whatever you say. I don't see where I ever said you supported torture or where I brought my kids into this until my post just before your last one. So I guess that makes you a liar. You seem to think your presentation of "cold hard facts" should have changed my mind. 'Fraid, not. I presented an opinion and agreed that while I understood your position I didn't agree and was willing to let it go at that. Apparently that's not good enough for you and you seem to be unable to grasp simple concepts like people having differing opinions, typical of a liberal thinker. So I suggest you either start or stop taking whatever meds you're on and learn to accept that just because you think you're right, not everyone else will. I learned that a long time ago, it's not that hard.
hey I got no dog in this fight but give it a rest Frank he got your point
This is what Bret4207 just had to say to me.
Bret4207 said...
Yeah, okay. Whatever you say. I don't see where I ever said you supported torture or where I BROUGHT MY KIDS into this until my post just before your last one.
SO I GUESS THAT MAKES YOU A LIAR. December 2, 2009 8:26 PM
Now, Bret4207 goes one extra measure beyond bounds of propriety and honesty by calling me a liar.
Work your way back to a thread dealing with the topic of holding trials for the terrorist suspects,
This is what I posted to Bret4207 on November 22nd:
A little off the thread but I'll try -
Bret4207, I doubt you could't last for 1 hour being naked and isolated in a cold, dark, cramped cage (can't stand up or lay down), having DMX blasted at ear splitting decibels, let alone go through the procedures of waterboarding. I'd would wager my lottery winnings that you'd chicken out before the water even started pouring down your nostrils.
"At November 22, 2009 9:22 AM , Bret4207 said...
That's not torture Frank. That's scaring and anonying someone. RIpping off fingernails, drilling through kneecaps, electric shock- that's torture. ANd if it protects my kids, I'd be first in line to endorse it."
Now who is lying? Who here is possibly the one popping pills and overindulgding in drink (as Bret4207 wryly accuses me of doing in other threads).
When one immerses themself in "right wing" lockstep talking points, I do believe that one stands a better than average chance to lose one's mind, or at least an understanding of what the word "truth" means.
And we all know a mind is a terrible thing to waste.
Eddie C., I'll give it a rest because he will never get my point.
I would not have wasted time exercising finger muscles in this last response to him, but for his calling me a liar.
You get my point, right?
When it comes to our country using torture, I am most intolerant.
Yes Frank, intolerance is your hallmark, that's more than evident. God help the person with a differing opinion from yours.
I understand your point and said earlier we could agree to disagree. You can't accept the idea of other people not thinking exactly like you do so you went off on your little hissy fit. That's not debate Frank, it's the whining of a 5 year old not getting his way.
So why don't we just agree to let it go? Neither of us like "torture", but we disagree on the specifics and end game. That's good enough for me. I can respect your opinion even though it's different than mine. Can you do the same?
Bret4207 said...
December 3, 2009 8:31 AM???
What did the fearful, cowardly, truth challenged, hate-monger that
remains anonymous, have to say?
Oh well, I'm sure that it was something worth reading, but my tolerance levels are too low to handle it.
Anyway, are there still any doubters out there as to what happened at Tora Bora and the escape of Bin Laden from the trap our special forces and Afghan allies had him in?
As others have pointed out, you can watch the same Frontline episode that I watched...just bring it up on youtube.
Caution: What Frontline reveals may anger you, and cause you to question the motivations of Pres. Bush and Don Rumsfeld, at the time.
?????
hermit thrush said...
on the other hand, regarding bret's comment, of course bush should be brought to trial. his sanction of torture was a war crime, and the proper function of our legal system demands that he be held accountable.
December 1, 2009 8:50 AM
That is correct Mr. Hermit Thrush, bring them to trial.
Aside to Bret4207,
This is on a side-issue on what already is off the topic of this thread.
I spent much time and effort, putting thought and research into long postings explaining to you why torture is evil, why it is wrong and why it is ineffective as a method to gain intelligence.
And from your replies, I don't know if you truly read my postings other than to find where I criticized your thinking on the matter of torture.
Torture is a war-crime. And we used torture.
And Bret4207, I am not trying to be mean when I use your own words against you.
As I said, you want to have it both ways -
what Bush/Cheney did was not torture -
but we need torture in our arsenal because the bad guys use torture -
but we don't torture...
Can you see that I'm simply trying to pin you down on what it is you do believe?
And no Bret4207, it is not simply a bunch of crazy lib Bush haters that believe this, although they do need less convincing.
Criticism of Bush's use of torture stems from serious minded people. High-ranking military types, intelligence types, and government types of the Conservative/Rep persuasion have all condemned our use of torture.
Only Cheney, and a handful of Cheney supporters (including his daughter and wife) have the mendacity and audacity to sell the American people on his approval of toture..."working the dark side, if you will."
Your sole concern seems to be that, if what we did as a nation are war-crimes, Bush and Cheney may be responsible and facing trial. And they indeed should.
Next, from your anonymity you called me a liar for stating you were the first to bring children into our discussions about torture.
Did you read where you in fact did bring your kids into the discussion on torture way back on 22 November? It was the same topic we were debating then on the thread dealing with holding trials for terrorists, remember?
You said that you would be willing to torture to save your children's lives.
As you now realize, it is possible to go back to previous threads to see what we have said before.
I do not expect an apology from you.
I realize that would be too much like torture . :-)
Frank, you extend the olive branch and then return to the old argument. I'll leave it at this- I did not realize you were going back to s completely different subject regarding bringing my kids into the conversation. And I never did say YOU were in favor of torture and yet that's what you said I did. If you prefer, I'll just say you were "incorrect" about that.
My "sole concern" is not for Bush and Cheney. While I don't think they're "evil", I also don't think it's a wise move. If you haul them in then the Repubs will move to indict Clinton and Carter for allowing the same things under their administrations. Surely there are plenty of people still around from the Clinton years who can spill the beans and there may still be enough from the Carter years to do the same. How much dirt will be drug up and how much further damage will it all do? It doesn't take specific knowledge to be held responsible in the court of public opinion and that's all that will matter in the tit for tat political arena. It took the Repubs 30 years to get back at the Dems for Nixon, and for some people that's just what it was. I see part of this as pay back for that and the 2000 elections. Do we really want to start it all over again? Your intentions may be pure, not everyone elses are.
Now, was the olive branch a decoy to get me back into the fight, or were you sincere? I'm willing to talk and debate Frank, but if it's just going to be more of the same forget it.
The olive branch was not saying that I surrender my thoughts and conscience.
I didn't expect that from you.
It is that we need to elevate the discussions beyond the school-yard.
I was speaking for both of us.
Is it that you apparently only see the "wrong' done by myself (and others) towards you, without accepting your role in all of this?
Now, we still can discuss.
Everything I pointed out about what you have said regarding torture - what it is, who uses it, why it is necessary, why we don't use it, why what we do is not torture, all the justifications and arguments, spring forth from your own brain.
My position has been constant and consistent and I've gone back to your previous comments to simply use them against you. If that makes me a jerk, well...ok
As for Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton, when and where did they ever give official government sanction to the use of torture by our people?
Yes, well meaning, but misguided American's working for the military or CIA have used torture in the past. Doing so was against our laws and against government policy.
And if we can go back in time to hold these people accountable, esp. if it can be traced to the highest levels of government, than I am all for trials and the truth.
Regardless of whose bailiwick is disturbed in the retelling.
I'm not saying we shouldn't have disagreements.
I'm saying let's try to be somewhat civil in doing so.
Let's hope that the days when you sure can dishing insults out, but not willing to take it yourself, is now a bygone practice.
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