Monday, November 16, 2009

Big Tent Fight, Small Tent Fight

American politics have always been a messy, throw-it-all-in-the-pot sort of business.

Because we generally conduct our civic business under the banners of two big parties, those banners come with a lot of baggage.

Over the years, the Democrats have been burdened by some major creepiness, from the Jim Crow-supporting southern Democrats of the 1950s to the militant-coddling left wing of the party in the 1970s.

Republicans, meanwhile, have been nervous fellow-travelers with racists (David Duke), intolerant religious leaders (Ted Haggard) and wild-eyed conspiracy theorists (Glenn Beck).

No wonder people yearn for third-party options.

Not only would more parties give us more options; they would also allow the folks on the fringe to build their own tents.

But until we evolve into a true, multi-party democracy, this is the game we're stuck with. Which is why it's so fascinating to watch the current struggles within both parties.

You can read a lot about the state of the Republican and Democratic movements by the rebellions both parties are struggling to tamp down.

The Democratic rebellion is the sort of upheaval common during a time of ascendancy, when the tent has gotten so big that it's a little hard to know what the party stands for anymore.

Is this the party of women? Of Blue Dog moderates? Of working class Roman Catholics? What?

The fault lines are fairly familiar: abortion, taxes, deficits, government regulation, jobs, health care, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The question is whether three utterly different leaders (Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid and Barack Obama) can steer the leviathan toward meaningful accomplishment.

This is why Democrats see accomplishing something -- almost anything -- on health care reform as an imperative.

There's a fear that the whole ponderous coalition could grind to a halt.

But it's important to point out that, because of the Democrats' massive power, the party is accomplishing a lot under the radar, dismantling or rejiggering a decade of Republican control in less than a year.

Even clumsy power is powerful.

On the other hand, you have the Republican Party's tent-match. There, the question isn't, Who do we allow in? Or, How do we share power among our factions?

The question for Republicans is, Can a stripped-down, conservative banner carry the day?

Activists are testing this theory from northern New York to Florida to South Carolina and Utah, where ultra-conservatives are challenging old-fashioned mainstream conservatives.

National leaders -- foremost being Sarah Palin and Rush Limbaugh -- are aggressively rebuking GOP leaders for making too many compromises.

This month, grassroots leaders in South Carolina voted to censure their veteran Republican Senator Lindsey Graham for cooperating on bipartisan legislation with Democrats.
"U.S. Senator Lindsey Graham -- in the name of bipartisanship -- continues to weaken the Republican brand and tarnish the ideals of freedom, rule of law, and fiscal conservatism."
While the Democratic turmoil is a pretty traditional dust-up in American politics, conservative infighting represents a far more dangerous experiment for the GOP.

It's possible, of course, that Republicans will emerge as a lean, disciplined and united party, poised to capitalize on Democratic blunders.

Conservatives are once again testing their conviction that a 'silent majority' is waiting eagerly for a true and unambiguous right-of-center message.

But it's also possible that the GOP is drifting deeper into the kind of morass that swallowed Republican presidential candidate Barry Goldwater, who won only 39% of the vote in 1968.

A true conservative, Goldwater was trounced and humiliated by that muddled, big-tent moderate Lyndon Johnson.

21 Comments:

At November 16, 2009 8:32 AM , Blogger Gromit said...

"militant-coddling left wing of the party in the 1970s"--that's a strong statement. Are you sugesting that there were officials in the Dem party supporting the Weathermen? Evidence, please.

This strikes me as a continuation of a tired and unconvincing argument, that there is extremism on both sides, and therefore we shouldn't get exercised by the current ravings of Bachmann, Palin, Imhofe, and others on the right. I don't buy it.

 
At November 16, 2009 8:54 AM , Anonymous Bret4207 said...

Heh, heh! Okay Gromit, lets have Brian change it to "militant coddling left wing party of 2009!" That's probably more accurate anyway.

This may be the time where we actually get some real 3rd party choices. While I realize many here view anyone associated with "Tea Party" ideals as a right wing racist homophobe, I'm ready for something other than Democrat and Democrat lite. Those are my two choices- One party in a large bus marked "Socialism or Bust!" and another, smaller party in an unmarked bus headed in the same direction, "drafting" the bigger one. I'm in the other lane headed in the opposite direction. I think that's okay, it's what this nation is supposed to be like. That doesn't mean compromise either. I read the other day that some famous person once said, "...compromise is not quite doing what you know is right...". I think there's a lot of truth in that.

American politics can be ugly, so what? It's still a better system than anywhere else.

 
At November 16, 2009 10:12 AM , Blogger Gromit said...

I know this is a waste of time, but here goes:

The contemporary Dem party is about as socialist as a boy scout troop. It's become a right-wing tactic to throw around the word "socialism" until some people begin to believe it, and it's obviously working.

Socialism involves the state as owner of the means of production. That's not the case here, and no one with any authority in the Dem party advocates it.

Notwithstanding the nattering from Beck, Malkin, Limbaugh, et al., neither regulation of business nor a public option as a health plan alternative nor a progressive tax structure constitutes socialism.

In Europe, where there are in fact viable socialist parties, they guffaw at what passes for political discourse in this country.

One of the great triumphs of the right in the last few years has been the utter debasement of language. Rove and Cheney are masters of repeatedly calling their opponents by names that make no sense. They do this over and over, and people who get their "news" from Fox get scared. It's called framing the debate, and the right is very good at it.

 
At November 16, 2009 10:43 AM , Blogger Dale Hobson said...

I agree with Gromit that the Democartic Party of today is about as socialist as a Boy Scout troop. but I disagree with his definition of socialism as state ownership of the means of production. That describes state socialism--a similar-sounding, but very different animal--which can cover political ground all the way from Mussolini to Stalin. Socialism is when the producers own the means of production and consumers control the means of distribution. We live amidst scary examples of that, such as the Potsdam Food Co-op, or Agway.

I don't see much hope in a third party future. Past third parties in the US have either replaced one of the existing two dominant parties, or quickly faded away. Multi-party systems seem to do better in parliamentary democracies than in a system like ours with a powerful executive. It takes all the "outs" working together to overcome the advantage of the "ins." Third Party insurgencies tend to favor incumbents of the party least affected by the split.

 
At November 16, 2009 10:57 AM , Anonymous Bret4207 said...

Dale, you forget little companies like Chrysler which was forcibly taken from it's rightful owners and given to the workers- the UAW. That does seem to fit your definition, does it not? GM might well be another example, but I'm still unclear on just how that's all actually working.

Guys, I admit I used the term with the intent of getting a rise out of you. But you reinforce my point in a way- you don't see any of this as socialism, no one in either party wants to. Calling Gov't owning and competing with private industry (health care for instance) socialism doesn't fit the text book definition, but neither does fascism, yet there are elements of both in the current rush to "change".

 
At November 16, 2009 11:04 AM , Blogger Gromit said...

Dale,

The Potsdam Food Co-op is scary? You're being ironic, right?

 
At November 16, 2009 11:06 AM , Blogger Dale Hobson said...

Nationalizing Chrysler and GM would have been examples of state socialism, letting them go under due to their own mismanagement would have been laissez-faire capitalism. I'm not sure what you call what actually happened--make-it-up-as-you-go-alongism maybe.

But forcibly taken from its rightful owners? The owners had worked the reverse alchemy of turning gold into lead. By the time the state intervened, there was nothing left to own. Call it an ad-hoc example of recycling.

 
At November 16, 2009 12:40 PM , Anonymous Bret4207 said...

How many shareholders, little mom and pops so to speak, were disenfranchised when their stocks were devalued during the take over? This wasn't an example of good gov't, this was an example of political payback.

 
At November 16, 2009 1:03 PM , Blogger Shane said...

devalued stock? It would have been a lot more 'devalued' if Chrysler and GM were allowed to go belly-up.

As for the original posting, it's funny to see how Brian couldn't make a reference to democratic extremism that wasn't over 30 years old. What's relevant now is the takeover of the GOP by populist know-nothings who see politics as nothing more than a game to piss off liberals. That's no way to govern the country.

BTW, just started reading this blog, and am very pleased with the content as well as the commentors. There are two sides here, and the debates haven't turned into ugly flame wars yet. It's a rare pleasure...

 
At November 16, 2009 1:35 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yawn...

How about this? I disagree with the premise of Brian's argument.

"...until we evolve into a true, multi-party democracy, this is the game we're stuck with..."

The verb, evolve, is problematic. Lets think about this. Why should the US party system "evolve" into that of Israel? France?

The assumption is that multiparty systems are superior to ours - I disagree and point to just two countries (there are more) where their politics are significantly worse off than that in the US. Multi-party systems are known more for their extremism than two party systems despite what we hear from the "far" left and right in the US. I'm left wondering, in what way are they preferable?

Also, part of the assumption is that "evolution" implies advance. This is another normative claim w/ no evidence in support. In what ways would it be an advance to have a multi-party system? Individual voters could have a party that's more representative - ok - but how else?

I'll take the two party system w/ all it's blemishes over, as Brian puts it, an evolved multi-party system. I contend that for all it's faults our politics is more workable today because of the two party system than the alternatives. Given our current institutional arrangement, if multi-parties became the norm legislating would grind to a halt. The only plausible solutions are a single party system (definately not what we want - see Mexico or Japan if you're unsure) or parliamentary multi-party government (see Israel & France, etc.).
jpm

 
At November 16, 2009 1:58 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Gromit,
Perhaps Cheney et al. have debased language (I'll grant you that) but it's because it's been borrowed from the academic left. Post modernists and deconstructivists have been practicing what you ascribe to the right for decades. One of the biggest proponents on the left of this line of thinking is Noam Chomsky. Let's be fair here.
jpm

 
At November 16, 2009 5:35 PM , Blogger Gromit said...

Anonymous 1:58,

I don't see how you can possibly equate the jargon of academia (as a recovering academic myself, I've been exposed to plenty) with the lunacy of the right wing. Who pays any attention to professors, except for other professors?

 
At November 17, 2009 9:19 AM , Anonymous Bret4207 said...

"Who pays any attention to professors, except for other professors?"

Apparently a lot of people in Washington, hence our current situation.

Re- the auto companies- Letting Chrysler and GM reorganize without artificial input from gov't may have left the shareholder with less money, but it would have been better in the long run. Now, in addition to owning stocks at 1/10 their original value, the stockholders have to contend with gov't manipulation and moreover- Union manipulation of their value. How can that possibly be good?

 
At November 17, 2009 1:07 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bret & Gromit,
I'm not going to defend professors but many people in power listen to them - sometimes too much as Brent suggests and never as Gromit believes. The point, however, isn't about the utility of what they offer to economics or otherwise, it's that the "debasement" of language finds it's modern roots in the intellectual left that's permeated both the political right and left.
jpm

 
At November 17, 2009 1:20 PM , Blogger Dale Hobson said...

We seem to have an ongoing thread about the debasement of language without anyone giving any examples of what is being talked about. Let's have some examples of debased terms that we are going to blame someone for, then point the finger. I notice that the terms "left wing" and "intellectual" seem to have become conflated, as if there aren't any right-wing ones.

 
At November 17, 2009 7:07 PM , Anonymous Bret4207 said...

Sarcasm aside, has anyone heard of any right wing intellectuals, other than the Sainted Wm.F. Buckley? He earned the title by beating the left wingers fair and square, and making them look rather dim witted while doing it.

 
At November 17, 2009 8:44 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

I have: Forrest MacDonald; Richard Posner; Harvey Mansfield; Milton Friedman - for starters.
jpm

 
At November 18, 2009 5:23 PM , Anonymous frank thies said...

Brian is correct about the ever evolving nature of political parties.

As all know, political parties have definitely evolved since the founding of our nation.
Even within a generation we have witnessed the seccession of Southern Democrats (Dixiecrats) from the ranks of the Democratic Party and unification of the same within the Republican Party.

Since the 1980's, the Republican Party has become an amalgamation of people who consider themselves conservative - either socially, culturally, economically, or any combination thereof. And this party, 98% white, is shrinking due to ever evolving demographics. The GOP/Con party is like a chicken broth. Good for people who are congenitally stuffy, but lacking in pizazz.

The Democratic Party (Independent Party included) has become the party of choice for a majority of white Americans, as well as up and coming minorities. Much more difficult to reach a consensus within the party ranks when they are all so different. The Dem/Lib Party is like a rich gumbo stew, filled with something that everyone likes.

Just take a look at group photos of the two sides of the House to understand what I mean about that gumbo/broth comparison.

 
At November 19, 2009 12:05 PM , Anonymous Bret4207 said...

I would not include Independents in the Democratic party. That makes no more sense than including them in nay other party. By definition they belong to no party.

 
At November 19, 2009 10:30 PM , Anonymous frank thies said...

Bret4207

When I wrote that, I was thinking of that Independent senator from Vermont, Bernie Sanders, who can be depended upon to vote with the Dems.

I was not thinking of that "Independent" senator from Connecticut, Joe LIEberman, who can be depended upon to vote for whatever is good for Joe.

 
At November 24, 2009 8:22 AM , Anonymous Bret4207 said...

Sanders will vote for whatever broadens socialist policy and for whatever brings money to Vt. At least Leiberman will buck the Dems and Repubs alike.

 

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