Should we fight on for Afghanistan?
A couple of weeks ago, we reported on the death of a Brant Lake soldier, Jeremiah Monroe, killed in Kandahar, Afghanistan.
Martha Foley also reported on the Canadian perspective, which is increasingly gloomy about the war and the prospects for aiding a culture so fundamentally different from ours.
In the days since, the debate has heightened over where America should go next in this eight-year-old conflict.
Is this Iraq, where a little more time and effort will buy us a kind of muddled, half-victory? Or is it Vietnam, unwinnable on almost any terms?
My thought at this point is, neither.
The United States is caught in the throes of something primal and tribal. We invaded in large part because that bitter conflict boiled over and contributed mightily to 9/11.
We also find ourselves protecting people who desperately need protection. I'm thinking primarily here of the women and girls of Afghanistan.
Their treatment at the hands of the Taliban and Al Quaeda will be brutal. Abandoning them to such a fate is abhorrent to me.
I've heard the joke from anti-war activists that if we leave, Afghanistan will slide back from the 11th century into the 7th century.
The punchline, in theory, is that the situation is pretty much as bad as it can get. What are a few centuries, when you're already in the Dark Ages?
I think that's wrong. I think any argument for pulling out has to confront the reality that the Taliban are nastier than anything we've seen in Sudan or Rwanda.
People who advocated for more intervention in those conflicts should explain why we should abandon the Afghans to this brutal and Medieval set of clerics.
Where do I come down? I think Afghanistan deserves more time and greater effort; and we should at long last give Afghanistan our full attention.
It may be George W. Bush's most lasting moral blunder that he diverted that attention from Afghanistan -- a war of necessity -- to Iraq, a war of choice.
A renewed effort needs four elements to have a hope of success:
1. An equal focus on security and nation building.
2. A full scale push by Americas diplomatic corps to improve the Afghani government.
3. An effort by the White House to articulate a full plan to the American people
4. A clear vision of what success will look like
Afghanistan will never look like the West, or even like Turkey or Kuwait. But there is still a chance to prevent it from looking like Somalia or Cambodia.
I think it's our responsibility to try. Your thoughts? Post below.
posted by Brian Mann @ 10/07/2009 01:49:00 PM
11 Comments
11 Comments:
You pretty well nailed it. One minor point, the Taliban is not a group of clerics. They are a group that badly misinterprets Islam and although there may be some radical clerics, most are just followers.
The thing is that the vast majority of the Aghan people do not desire to be in the 7th century or the 11th century. They want what we want; safe and secure environemnt to pursue prosperity, a future and education for their children, responsible and honest governance. We call it life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
-Willsboro
I would be most interested in the think tank numbers on what it would cost to build up regional economies in Afghanistan (it is a country deeply segmented into almost tribal and separate regions) vs. the cost of maintaining or increasing troops there. Give the money directly to regional leaders and bypass the corrupt central government...and run a feint around the Taliban.
I wonder how strong a footing the Taliban would have if the US and its allies built up infrastructure, businesses, agriculture and education...without the heavy military presence.
Can we really put our hope in a military success in Afghanistan? We all know the history of failure for foreign occupations of the country. Are we feeling so powerful--and wealthy--right now that we think we can do better...than Britain or the USSR?
I think it's nationalistic hubris.
It's unconscionable for us to leave Afghanistan. Bryan's right about not relegating the Afghan people to brutality.
The role of Pakistan is crucial to success in Afghanistan. Ask any returning soldier & they'll tell you that the border b/w the two countries cannot be sealed and that Pakistan based Taliban and Al Quaeda attacks are constant. Pakistan's assistance in rooting out the Taliban and Al Quaeda.
Afghanistan is a nightmare.
At last we agree Brian. We had to go to Afghanistan, there was no workable alternative. And since we went there, we have to finish it. I won't debate Iraq since I'm sure my view differs from many others here, but we've left a moderately stable Gov't with a future if the Iraqi people can grasp the concept of individual rights and freedoms. That's our mission in Afghanistan- leave a moderately (hopefully very stable) gov't in the hands of the Afghans so they may determine their own course. If we turn tail and run the enemy will consider it a victory and bring the war here. I spent months in NYC from 9/12 on and have no desire to see anything like that again. That is what leaving will bring us, of that I am positive.
Ellens idea of building Afghanistan without a military presence ignores the obvious- if the military leaves, the country denigrates into chaos.I see no other workable alternative.
What would be nice is if Europe, Russia and the near east would would take some responsibility for events in their own backyard. They took no action in the Balkans and our guys are still there even though the President at the time promised they'd only be there a year. If other nations would toe the line and show some backbone it would be a help.
Time to go....We lost the minute Bin Laden escaped at Tora Bora, the only purpose we were there. We, nor any nation, will ever create some sort of stable government in Afghanistan. History has proven that. I side with those that believe we can still destroy and hunt Al Quada with a much more limited presence. End the insanity.
"nationalistic hubris" That's a strong statement Ellen. We CAN do better than Britain and the USSR.
Secondly as long as women are being beaten and killed and men and women bullied I think we ought stay put.
As a vietnam vet, I really try to avoid thinking of analogies to Afganistan..but they keep coming, yesterday's NYTimes reported that we're calling the recent attacks where 8 US troops were killed a "victory" because we killed a lot more of them...."body counts", "kill ratios" sound familiar to anyone else? I can't help feeling we're wading into the big muddy again
It's sad and sickening to think of the ways our country let the Afghanistan conflict fester while we threw money and lives into the Iraq "adventure".
Personally I think we are obligated to do our best to get Afghanistan to a level of security before we leave, but in order to achieve that, we need to dump President Karzai, who was a puppet when the previous administration put him in, and has now dug in with a highly corrupt machine of a "government". We (the countries currently defending his sorry butt) need to offer him a nice retirement package and fly him off to some nice island nation where he can sit by the sea and never be heard from again (hey, I hear Gitmo may be available soon...).
After a new election overseen by neutral parties, we can do what needs to be done. Here are two that come immediately to mind:
-Conduct a huge public education and information campaign (flyers, billboards, radio/loudspeaker announcements, television, computer etc. - the whole nine yards) to show the region's Islamic populations that the Koran - the word of Allah, does NOT instruct men to dominate, abuse, or otherwise silence women; neither does it condone killings of innocent people or fellow Muslims; stress all the positive, life affirming advice in the Koran. Of course the Fundamentalists within the Taliban won't give up, but if people hear the other side of the Muslim position, with luck they'll move away from those who blow up their spiritual neighbors.
-Bring leaders of (post-Karzai) Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, and possibly other necessary regional stakeholders (to borrow an overused term)together to talk about how everybody might be able to exist without blowing each other up. They don't have to hug each other, but if a referee can get them to recognize each others' right to exist, that'd be a huge start.
But first things first. Get Karzai out of there.
Afghanistan is not Iraq. Two very very different cultures, histories, geographies and political maps. While I opposed the invasion of Iraq, whatever "success" has been achieved there can not be used as an example of what we might accomplish in Afghanistan. Just not parallel situations. And, there's Pakistan. The wild card. Shall we also invade Pakistan in order to chase down Taliban? Where does it stop?
I am horrified at the treatment of women under the previous Taliban regime. I am also horrified at the news from Guinea and from Darfur, where women are being brutalized. More chance of helping women in those situations than in Afghanistan. Again, build up regional/tribal leaders in Afghanistan, give them something concrete with which to resist the attraction (mostly to young men) of the Taliban, and get the heck out.
Yes, Fred, I agree, it feels more and more like Vietnam...
Ellen, there is an organization, albeit a highly ineffective and corrupt organization, called the United Nations that could be taking action in Darfur and Guinea and in a long list of other places where obvious injustice occurs. However, as with Afghanistan, they won't do more than make a token gesture. Should the US do it? Should we leave Afghanistan to the warlords and rush to the next conflict?
My hope is that we finish the job in Afghanistan quickly and bring ALL our guys home- every last one of them from the middle east, Korea, Japan, Haiti, Germany, etc. I'm a USMC vet, but I see no use in our projecting our power, fixing other peoples problems and then taking the shaft for trying to do right. I'm at the point where I see no use in it anymore. South Korea will be overrun, China will invade Taiwan, Russia will retake her old possessions and South American will become a Communist stronghold.
What will the world call us then?
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