Thursday, October 22, 2009

Can Republicans "win pure"?

With Dick Armey stumping in the district for Doug Hoffman today and Newt Gingrich taking up Dede Scozzafava's banner, NY-23 has become the latest front in the Republican Party's civil war.

It's a civil war that has already driven out former GOP moderates such as New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg (mostly over gun issues) and Pennsylvania Senator Arlen Specter (who faced a conservative primary challenge that he was unlikely to win).

The next casualties could easily be Dede Scozzafava and Doug Hoffman, whose blood-feud could send both to the runner-up circle.

This battle has raged from coast-to-coast, and across the airwaves and blogsites of the conservative movement. The arguments of the two sides go something like this:

Conservatives insist that it was a lack of ideological purity that allowed the Bush administration to wander so deep into the wilderness.

Overspending and fuzzy-thinking on immigration angered so many conservative voters that they sat out 2006 and 2008. When their "silent majority" went dormant, Democrats won big.

Moderates see this very differently. They're convinced that most Americans really don't want the hard-right conservative agenda.

They see the GOP brand as broken not by overspending and a willingness to compromise.

They think the problem lies with fire-breathers like Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity, who've ratcheted up the culture war to a fever pitch.

There are elements of truth to both narratives. A party has to stand for something.

And if the GOP becomes the "Democrats Lite" they have a hard time defining themselves and charting a course back to the majority.

On the other hand, there's mounting evidence that in much of the U.S., the conservative agenda and its message carriers are complete turn-offs.

The latest ABC/Washington Post poll shows that only 20% of Americans describe themselves as Republicans.

That's the lowest number since 1983, and more than a third below the support enjoyed by Democrats.

If there is a silent majority/town hall revolution waiting out there, hungry for a conservative resurgence, the pollsters aren't finding them.

And demographic trends -- more women voters, more immigrants, more people of color -- suggest that the conservative dream may be harder and harder to reach every year.

The Republican-Conservative movement has always been a fragile thing, uniting groups with fairly disparate agendas.

Even when all the wings and factions were working in tandem, they often won elections by razor-thin margins.

But now there's a civil war on.

While Democrats plug away at building voter enrollments, organizing get-out-the-vote efforts and bit TV campaigns, conservatives and Republicans are blasting at one-another.

It's very hard to see how that's a winning formula. But it's also increasingly difficult to see how they put this back together again.

I hear real loathing from the two sides. Within the conservative movement, I hear far more animosity against Scozzafava and the Republican leadership than against Democrat Bill Owens.

And Scozzafava's campaign has taken to marching outside Doug Hoffman's headquarters.

A final footnote: I can't make a public prediction now. That's not kosher for a journalist covering the race. But I'm emailing my best guess to my colleague David Sommerstein.

After this is over, I'll let you know if i was close...

You readers, on the other hand, don't have to be coy. How do you think this plays out? Is this a Republican debacle, or will purity win out?

Labels:

21 Comments:

At October 22, 2009 1:09 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

No, there is no winning pure. There is a certain amount if revisionism going on here as far as the Republican Party being primarily a conservative party. Neither party was particularly ideological in the past and both parties had a range of members from conservatives to more liberal members. Thus, you had Jacob Javits and Bill Miller (Goldwater's running mate) in the same party here in New York. There were also examples of that in the national parties as well. In the 60's there was a Republican Party and the John Birch Society. Now those elements are found within the Republican party.
Dede for her part is very much in the mainstream of New York State Republicanism.
What is coming apart is the old Republican coalition. Moderates are disappearing as you noted. Beyond that religious conservatives, social conservatives, fiscal conservatives, moderates are no longer working as a coalition. The shift right has left the center open. There is only one thing that the hard right hates as much as a liberal and that is a Rockefeller Republican (fiscally conservative and socially progressive). That is what drove the right nuts about Clinton; he governed as a Rockefeller Republican and started putting together elements of a new political coalition. That is Dede's sin in all this, she is true to NYS Republicanism.

 
At October 22, 2009 1:14 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Brian - Bloomberg and Specter are GOP moderates driven from the party? Spare me the bunk. Bloomberg was a registered Dem for decades and Specter voted for years with Ds. They were hardly driven from the GOP.

Anon (1.09) - American political parties are not ideological (period), especially when compared to multi-party systems. US parties are PRAGMATIC. The goal is to win elections at all costs, hence why the GOP went with Dede when many of the rank and file are more inline with Hoffman.
jpm
jpm

 
At October 22, 2009 1:23 PM , Blogger Brian Mann said...

JPM -

I think your post reflects a kind of 'have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too" purism.

Conservatives insist that moderates are unwelcome for their views. They batter them mercilessly, call them RINOs, insist that they're wrecking the party.

Then, when they leave, or lose, conservatives refuse to acknowledge that they were driven from the party.

Arlen Specter was a moderate Republican for...decades. He helped anchor the GOP's majorities, at a time when losing his vote would have tanked the Bush agenda.

Michael Bloomberg was the most important Republican mayor in the United States. Endorsed by Giuliani. Supporter of GOP majorities in the state Senate.

Yet conservatives pilloried both.

Pushing these folks out (and saving Scozzafava's campaign) is perfectly fair. That's what politics (and democracy) are about.

But claiming after the fact that they were either a) never Republicans to begin with or b) left without being pushed just doesn't wash...

Similarly, if Scozzafava and Hoffman both lose, I expect a lot of conservatives to insist that they had nothing to do with it...

-Brian, NCPR

 
At October 22, 2009 1:37 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

You bring up a good point, Brian. If Owens wins, there's bound to be an even bigger sh*t storm within the Republican party than the one already descended upon it. I'm getting my popcorn ready as it should be really entertaining watching the conservatives trying to deflect blame onto the moderates.

 
At October 22, 2009 1:44 PM , Anonymous AGM said...

There is no practical way to have a 'pure' party and expect to win an election. We all have our individual views and the best we can hope for is a candidate who fairly represents the myriad viewpoints that each of us has. Using litmus tests, as the neo-conservatives are currently doing, will alienate the majority of voters. Hoffman will not win. If Scozzafava losses this election it will be directly because of the negative campaigning by out of the area Conservatives and Republicans alike. Scozzafava views, as far as we've seen, are very much in line with that of area Republicans. We'd all be better off if the national party whackos (of all flavors) would stay out of our election. Let the candidates explain to the voters why we should vote for them as opposed to the whiners (or the candidates themselves) trying to convince us to vote against another candidate(s).

 
At October 22, 2009 2:46 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hoffman represents a strain of republicanism that never really has existed in NYstate. NY has been a progressive (small p) state for a century. Forget the Dems, the most famous GOP governors, Dewey, Rockefeller, Pataki all created programs and spent money.

the "Hoffman" strain, cancel programs, cut spending, lower taxes jusst hasn't sold here.

And it won't in 2009.

 
At October 22, 2009 3:06 PM , Anonymous Bret4207 said...

"I hear real loathing from the two sides. Within the conservative movement, I hear far more animosity against Scozzafava and the Republican leadership than against Democrat Bill Owens."

You're starting to "get it" Brian. It's not about abortion, or gay marriage or even taxes. It's about the people we voted for in the belief they would stay true to the conservatives ideals becoming neo-cons, RINOs and worse. We understand the liberal and progressive positions. What boggles our mind is when we see someone paraded as a "Republican" (McCain for instance) who then supports and introduces bills that are clearly the antithesis of the conservative position (McCain-Feingold or the "Gang of 14" for example). I don't think the Democrats have really had that problem too much.

I just heard Dede was endorsed by and ACCEPTED the endorsement of ACORN!!! Now how can anyone look at that as a good thing, much less for a Republican. Things like that tend to convince many of us that we have no representation of our values.

 
At October 22, 2009 3:12 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Brian,
I'm not trying to have it both ways. I just disagree with your assessment. I was pointing out that the sorting that has taken place was a matter of personal choice on the part of Bloomberg and Specter. Stating that they were pushed out is inaccurate or an overstatement. For example, if Specter were to have had his committee seniority stripped by the GOP then I would agree with you that he was pushed. We can differ on the extent to which Specter anchored the Senate GOP. Having worked in DC, I can tell you from first hand experience that he was tolerated in the GOP Conference. His fall from grace w/in the GOP happened in 1987 with his questioning of Robert Bork.

Regarding Bloomberg, he funded the GOP because S.Silver wasn't assisting him/ or his proposals. Since the the GOP senate was more friendly, he helped them. This is another example of pragmatic politics. Also, Bloomberg funded his own candidacy & received zero support from the NYCGOP. They were happy about this but it also meant they had no leverage on him. There were no reasons other than similar preferences why he should exercise disciple to GOP principles. Thus he was only nominally a Republican.

I also think, like you, that parties can and should determine their members. In the case of Dede, she didn't face voters in a primary. Her selection was made in private b/w party elites. This, in part, is what's fueling some of the animus in the 23rd.
JPM

 
At October 22, 2009 3:15 PM , Anonymous Bret4207 said...

"the "Hoffman" strain, cancel programs, cut spending, lower taxes jusst hasn't sold here.

And it won't in 2009.

October 22, 2009 2:46 PM"

Maybe it's time we tried those ideas since we're broke. The current National Debt is $110K per taxpayer! (www.usdebtclock.org) If things continue and planned programs are implemented it only gets worse. Start cutting slowly and lower taxes too, it's the only answer. At our present rate of self destruction I doubt we'll make it past this Christmas without serious economic and regulatory issues.

 
At October 22, 2009 5:27 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Prediction - Hoffman wins and the Republican Party (at least in this district) gets a big black eye.

 
At October 22, 2009 5:29 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Prediction - Hoffman wins and the Republican Party (at least in this district) gets a big black eye.

my initials - JDM

 
At October 22, 2009 7:07 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

The " Big Tent " has become a " pup " tent. Just like Rome, the Republican Party is rotting from the inside out and turning on itself. With so few people now willing to say they are Republicans, it is obvious that the Republican Party has indeed left a lot of people.

 
At October 22, 2009 7:35 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

The "purging" of the Republican Party..... War heroes like Bob Dole are now called agents for " non-freedom?"...Dole made statements in favor of pursuing health care reform....that makes him persona non grata.
Dole's remarks put him in a growing group of Republicans who are, to varying degrees, supportive of the ongoing reform efforts. Just over the last week, we've seen either endorsements or tacit support from California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger, former Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, Bush HHS Secretary Tommy Thompson, Bush CMS chief Mark McClellan, and New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg (a Republican turned independent).

That IS the state of the Conservative Party. Follow blindly.

 
At October 22, 2009 7:49 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

"The Party of No is fast becoming the Party of Nobody."

 
At October 23, 2009 7:56 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

45% of this country say they are conservative, 27% liberal, and the rest independent. This country is a center-right country as much as it pains you far left nut jobs. The problem with the Republicans is that over the last decade they have continued to move left to "get more votes." The true conservative brand is starting to come back out. I am a conservative. I refuse to say that I'm a Republican. That is the problem with all these polls. A huge chunk of this country will not say they are Republican but now Conservative. The GOP has lost touch with it's base and reality in this country. Everyone says Limbaugh wants this country to fail because he wants Obama to fail. That's lunacy. He wants the "annointed ones" policies to fail. He doesn't want this country becoming a socialist country. It's time for personal responsibility to return and to end the handouts that this government wants to keep handing out. But the Dem's and Liberals are banking on getting 51% of the country on welfare, assuming that this 51% will never vote against cutting their welfare checks, thus keeping the libs in power for ever and our country as we know it disappearing forever. The role of the government is to protect us not take care of us. Stop to cycle of welfare in this country.

 
At October 23, 2009 9:09 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

The Conservative Party is OWNED by lobbyist for Big Business, the Health Care Industry and the Neo-Cons that have made money off the no bid contracts like those given to Haliburton.
Ex Republican Senators and Congressmen go from the Legislative Branch of Government strait to the Lobbying Firms that fund the Dick Armeys and Dick Cheneys of the World and join full circle with the Conservative Party. They are an industry in their own right. And it has paid handsomely to them.
They write laws that make it easier forCorporations like Haliburton to move out of the Country but still receive Billions in hand outs from the taxpayers.
Conservatives need to change their name. They are not Conservatives. Nation building, spreading Democracy around the globe, limiting personal freedoms, wire tapping indiscriminately when the FICA system worked, those are NOT conservative principles...They are radical, and anti-American and are a type of Socialism that would be found in Franco's Spain. That is the kind of Socialism we should fear....It just has a feel good name , Conservative..

 
At October 23, 2009 11:28 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Where did Van Jones go after he was outed as a Communist? A liberal lobbyist. Don't give me this crap that Republicans are the only ones going to Lobbyists. Most do it on both sides. The hypocracy just drives me nuts. You'd think the liberals poop didn't stink, yet they end up being the biggest criminals most of the time. See Charlie Rangel. If he was republican he would have been shouted out years ago, but he's a holy democrat so he can get away with what you and I would be in jail for years for. Ethics investigation? Nope, Obama's handlers don't think so.

 
At October 23, 2009 11:31 AM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Here's where Obama is taking us:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,569223,00.html?test=latestnews
He's best buds with Chavez, so why not think this is where the progressives want us to go. Pretty soon, you'll only get to sit on the toilet for one minute and use two squares per sitting. Where will government control of our lives stop?

 
At October 23, 2009 12:15 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Conservatives just don't get it! The reason Republicans have been voted out of office the last few years is because they went TOO far to the right to satisfy the wacko right wingnuts of the Party....They scare most Americans. The bible thumping, no such thing as evolution,My family values , My prayer in school,we are real Americans , your not, blah blah rhetoric was annoying, but mostly it was the bad behavior and policies and politicizing of the Judical system that put voters over the top and said enough is enough.... No more Larry Craigs and Tom Foleys and Tom DeLays gerrymandering...no more scooter libby , cheney lies, no more...no more Rove slash and burn tactics, No more abusing of the Constitution..Don't they get it? The people have had enough of their vitriol and hate and all this Obama bashing is hurting them and making them look petty, mean spirited and unfit for duty....

 
At October 23, 2009 1:32 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Did someone actually post a link from a fox news site to back up their claim? You got to be kidding.. LOL.

 
At October 23, 2009 3:04 PM , Anonymous Bret4207 said...

The sheer hypocrisy in the last few posts is sickening. How can anyone say the Republicans have any corner on the slime market? Have you forgotten who gave us the sub prime mess?

Grow up little liberals and face the facts- both major parties are filled with scum sucking, bottom feeding slime balls. Doesn't matter if it's Lindsay Graham or Al Franken they're all worthless and need to be removed along with all the lobbyists. Term limits, lowered salaries and perks, Congress gets the same healthcare we do, an end to career politicians- that's the type of thing that's needed.

Some of you people also need to learn the difference between Republicans, neo-cons, Conservatives and conservatives. The simple minded name calling gets old after while, especially with the froth and spittle hitting the screen....

 

Post a Comment

<< Home